Rethinking Resilience: How Trauma and Neurodiversity Shape the Way We Work with Natalie Armstrong

“We celebrate people who burn out and call it resilience. But real resilience is knowing when to pause, when to speak up, and when to take care of yourself.” - Natalie Armstrong 

Nurse and trauma-informed leader Natalie Armstrong shares practical ways to support neurodivergent employees and build resilient, inclusive workplaces.

Have you ever sensed something was off with a colleague—but couldn’t quite name it? Maybe they shut down in meetings, avoid conflict, or seem overwhelmed by simple feedback. It’s easy to chalk it up to attitude or performance. But what if it’s something deeper—like unrecognized trauma or neurodiversity?

In this episode, I sit down with Natalie Armstrong, a trauma-informed workplace consultant, neurodiversity advocate, and NHS nurse leader. Together, we explore how trauma and neurodivergence quietly shape behavior at work—and how leaders can foster safer, more inclusive environments by tuning into the human side of performance.

Natalie shares her personal story of navigating ADHD, trauma, and burnout, and how it shaped her into a compassionate, people-first leader. She walks us through real scenarios, signals to look out for, and the small but powerful adjustments that help people—especially high performers—thrive on their terms.

Whether you’re a leader, colleague, or someone navigating these challenges yourself, this episode offers a roadmap toward psychological safety, resilience, and more human leadership.

Bio

Natalie Armstrong is a UK-based trauma-informed workplace consultant, neurodiversity advocate, and NHS nurse leader. With lived experience of ADHD and complex trauma, she helps organizations create inclusive, psychologically safe cultures. Her work focuses on supporting neurodivergent individuals through flexible leadership practices, emotional intelligence, and education that drives organizational resilience.

Email: nataliearmstrongconsultancy@gmail.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliearmstrongconsultancy/

Key Takeaways

• Neurodiversity includes ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia—each with unique processing styles.
• Labels can help, but they can also limit. Focus on how people process, not what they’re labeled.
• Trauma responses in the workplace may look like people-pleasing, shutting down, or avoiding conflict.
• Leaders don’t need to diagnose trauma—they need to create environments that reduce harm and build safety.
• Masking is a hidden cause of burnout for many neurodivergent employees.
• Practical strategies include offering flexible schedules, quiet workspaces, opt-out options for triggering content, and stand-up-friendly meetings.
• Support over blame is essential—especially for those with histories of shame or trauma.
• Trust is built when leaders model v

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Chapters

• 0:00 The Pitfalls of Constantly Striving for Perfection
• 0:41 Embracing Sufficing: Making Tough Trade-offs for Success
• 1:04 The Importance of Self-Awareness and Self-Compassion for Longevity
• 17:25 [Ad] Fit, Healthy & Happy Podcast
• 18:03 (Cont.) The Importance of Self-Awareness and Self-Compassion for Longevity

Transcript

0:04

This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. Welcome back to a fresh new week. let me prime your mind for this week's episode. Let me ask you a few questions. Have you ever had the feeling that something is off with someone at work, but you just can't quite put your finger on it? Maybe they shut down in meetings. Maybe they're always apologizing. Or maybe they seem brilliant in one area and completely overwhelmed in another. What if what you're seeing isn't attitude or incompetence, but something deeper, something human. Well, in this episode, I sit down with Natalie Armstrong, a neurodivergent workplace consultant, trauma-informed speaker, and an NHS leader who brings a rare mix of professional expertise and lived experience. So together, we explore the real impact of trauma and neurodiversity in the workplace, and why understanding it might be one of the most important leadership skills of our time. From recognizing subtle signs of distress to leading with flexibility and compassion, well, Natalie offers not just strategies, but a shift in perspective. One that can change how we lead, how we work, and how we relate to one another in the workplace. So without further ado, let's slip into the stream and meet Natalie Armstrong. I'd like to welcome everyone back to the show. Natalie, welcome. Hi, how are you? I'm doing well, I'm doing well. Could we kick off by you introducing who you are and briefly what you do? Yeah, so my name is Natalie Armstrong. I live in the UK. I'm currently a nurse, but also on the side, I am out there trying to get people to do more trauma-informed leadership, to include people with ADHD, talk about resilience. I think working as a nurse in the public health service here has made me realise how little people actually know about trauma and how it can affect our day to day living and how actually if we all just change a little bit, we might be able to get the best out of people and actually retain people in companies and get a bit more resilience that's more of an organisational resilience than a personal resilience. So I think there's lots of learning out there that can be done. Well said. Well said. Perhaps we could kick off the show by sort of setting the groundwork as to what neurodiversity is, just to operationally define it to some extent. Yeah absolutely so neurodiversity is just it's looking at the diverse different ways that our brains work so some of the things that will come under neurodiversity are adhd autism dyspraxia dyslexia there's it's a big umbrella that mainly just looks at the different ways that the brain processes information and how that then comes out so it's just away from the norm we've always thought that it's one way but actually over the years we've started to realize that we all process information differently but there are a subgroup of people that have got autism who process it a particular way but not everybody who's got autism does it the same and not everybody who's got adhd does it the same but it's about understanding the differences to be able to get the best out of people. I think that's a very key point. You know, I was, I was on LinkedIn and I've your, your profile came up and I found it. And honestly, I found it very compelling to reach out to you as a guest on the show, because a couple of my kids have a mild form of dyslexia. And I remember when they were first diagnosed, if we can use that word, you know, they were labeled with, this is something we talked in the pre-introduction, where the doctors had said, labeled them, yes, they are dyslexic. And I made sure to correct them and to make sure I hammered home to my kids that, yes, you have dyslexia, but what you said was right on the money. It's just a different way the brain processes information, right? And that is the key. It's the way it processes information. You don't have a disability. You're not different. You're not an alien species. No. You know, it is exactly what you said is neurodiversity and it's how they process information and that's what I wanted to also hammer home today in this episode because I think that's so key for people to understand because it's so easy for us just to fall into a frame that oh yes let's lump these people in this kind of group I just really liked your definition and I wholeheartedly concur with what you've said. I think this is the part of the problem in society is that children get given labels so like you said your children were told you are dyslexic well they're not dyslexic they have dyslexia but they're not dyslexic all they need to do is. Not all they need to do but it's about finding different ways so one of the things that I know that can help for dyslexic children especially or adults depending when you find out is having different colored paper different colored type like how it's typed what colors are against each other and then they can see everything better because they're processing it differently it is just all we need to think about i think it's easier for people to look at it like a computer they've just got a different processing center inside their head that then comes out doesn't mean that they can't achieve everything that they want to achieve in life and i think although labels are really helpful because they help you understand and have tools and structure for your life they can also be a bad thing because when you're if you're a child being told you're dyslexic that's it i know many adults who i've come across in the health service that i've managed and they've been told they've got dyslexia so they've never pushed they've never pushed to go and get that degree to become a nurse so they've been a health care assistant and then they've started working for me and i'm like well why can't you do it well i've got dyslexia so let's just find what works for you let's find a way that you're understanding the information and then I'll sit with them and I will work with them so that we can get them to a point because... We're missing out on so many people doing wonderful things because they think that it's a problem with them. They don't realise that it's not a problem. It's just a different way of processing things. No one's actually sat down and said, actually, let's look at how you can retain this information or you can learn this particular thing. It doesn't necessarily have to be the right way. And this is the problem with schools. We know that it's always been a one size fits all. And this is the and it carries on. And this is my point. So I could focus on children being taught, but we've started to understand, you know, they don't all learn the same way. But then you go into work and everybody is leading as if we're all the same and we're not. So it's about we should treat everybody the same. No, we shouldn't. We should be fair. But everybody needs something different. We all need something different. It's about learning about people and understanding your employees and being like, well, they work better. Some people work better from home some people don't I personally have to have a mixture of the two but you know when I'm at home I can get the amount of work that I get done in a week in two hours because I'm talking less um and that's the point is that I understand that but not everybody understands what's right for them so as a leader you need to be able to be informed to then be able to help them and get the best out of staff I just think we just think one size fits all for everything and we have done for so long that it's hard to come out of it. Very true. I mean, we are much more adept at identifying different ways of processing information in children. And I've had a couple of clients over the years where, you know, they've been leaders of departments, if not the entire company, and they're moving at such a pace, right? And they wonder why. What is the reason not everyone can keep up? What's the constantly, well, I have to constantly tap the brakes. And so as an adult, they got themselves, they went through some sort of processing to understand what's going on. And they were identified, you know, having ADHD. But the diagnosis, if I can use that word, wasn't earth shattering for them. It was an eye opener. It was like, oh, that's why I do what I do. Yeah. And all the pieces kind of made sense for them. It all kind of fell into place, right? And it's the same with a couple of my kids, right? They were thinking, Dad, why do I always get, this was 10 years ago, why do I get my P's and B's and Q's all mixed up? Once we figure it out, it's like, okay, you're just processing information a little differently. Yeah, and I think it's a good thing that we are starting to accept it and move in the right direction. I think that there's just a lot that we can still do because it's not just neurodivergence that means that you process information differently. Most neurodivergence, not most, but there's a high number of people who have neurodivergence that have gone undiagnosed, that have faced trauma in their lives because of being undiagnosed, so not fitting in, not being accepted. So and then having trauma also makes your brain process information differently you can have hypervigilance so you can be more anxious and then once you're at work and you're in an employee there can be little changes that could be made that would then make that person feel safe so then they build resilience and they start to learn how they're processing because it's really hard once you come out of trauma or you come out of your fight or flight state that you might have been in for years to then start learning how your brain actually works it took me it's still I'm still learning I'm not going to lie to you and it took me a really long time and I've I'm I would say I want to say lucky enough but I don't know if it's luck or not but I have ADHD and I have a whole load of trauma so my brain processes information one at an unbelievable rate but also not a rate that I can ever catch on to anything so I've had to learn strategies to be able to manage that but it's helped me understand other people and that's made me a better leader in the. Long run because it means that I actually take the time to work out how people process information because I know what it's like to have not been understood and to have not understood myself so I think that there's so much around processing that we just don't look at and that once you've become an adult you're just expected to fit into a mold that we go to work we do our jobs and we come home and we must be the best and we must work really hard and we must get to this deadline and we must succeed and we must keep pushing like societal pressure is huge and I think when you've struggled or got trauma from being younger or you're neurodivergent that pressure then just gets bigger and bigger which why which is why in the UK there's quite a high percentage of people with autism that aren't in employment which is really really sad I appreciate that lots of people with autism can have other associated learning disabilities but on the whole it's because they're just so overloaded and the pressure is too great and there's a lack of understanding that these great minds are sat at home they're not working they're too fried or burnt out to be able to get into work and that's just that's absolutely awful really you know we're humans let's let's all understand each other and try and make it so it's a nice world for them to live in Yeah. If we could segue because you were talking about your own history to the extent you would like to share, Natalie. Without presuming too much, what brought you into this space in this to to be a spokesperson for such a such an important topic within society in itself? There's numerous things. I think I. I was I lived through a lot of trauma and although I knew that my childhood wasn't right, I didn't really understand until I went to therapy how much of an effect it had had on me and it was actually whilst I was there that I got told I had ADHD so um as far as adverse childhood events go there's 10 that you can hit a score on um and I've got nine out I had nine out of those 10 so it was a which then means as I've read into it obviously with ADHD I'm hyper focused into these things um and I kind of realized as I've gone on in the years and I've been working myself out and reading a lot I've realized how many people that actually are out there once you start talking about it I'm a very open person and once you start talking about it you realize how many other people have struggled and they've got to where they are and being in the being in healthcare I'm working in public healthcare I have managed lots of people I have met lots and lots of people in the emergency department throughout the hospital. And I thought, hold on a minute, we're not looking at trauma. We're not looking at ADHD. I've had bad experiences. I've just, I've been through it and I just want to change it. I want to use all the negatives that have happened in my life to just change one person's life. If I can help one person realize that you can go through all of this stuff and it can be absolutely terrible and you can think your life's just not worth living and then you can come back and you can actually make something out of it then it will make me feel like I've achieved something I just want to make other people realize that you're not on your own because I felt very alone very very alone for a very long time. Yeah, and I'm glad you were, you know, you were agreed to come on the show because hopefully this conversation today reaches out to someone and it does set them in the right direction or helps them pivot just slightly where they feel like, you know what, I'm much more than this. These limits are, they're just in a sense in my head, if I may use that vernacular, and I can push forward such as you. I mean, obviously, you know, you're a living example, plus all the other people you've met throughout your career who've made, who've pushed beyond the limited barriers that we've set up for ourselves or society or whoever has set up these barriers and to understand their falsehoods and that we can tackle through these falsehoods. If we can just shift a little, I'd like to sort of just demystify something you talked about, trauma at work. You know, a lot of us may see trauma as sort of one catastrophic event, something that just completely derailed us. How would you explain developmental or complex trauma more in sort of everyday workplace terms, if we may go there for a second? So you can think of trauma as one big event. That's absolutely fine. That's PTSD. We know lots about PTSD because of people going off to war and big events, car crashes. But complex trauma and developmental trauma is lots of micro things that happen so and they happen over and over again so you could have for example in your childhood you could live in a house where there's domestic violence so it's not happening to you it's happening to somebody else but it's the effect it has on your nervous system and how it overwhelms your nervous system and how as a child you don't know how to manage it you don't have any emotional intelligence so then it builds and it builds and it's just lots of little micro events that other people might think are nothing that then build and build and build and they're just going on top of each other and before you know it you're starting to show signs that when you become an adult of PTSD. But it's not because of one big event it's because you've lived through years of micro events and your nervous system is just so overwhelmed it's just it doesn't know how to process stuff it doesn't understand why you're acting in so sometimes you can get an email and you can think the world's going to end because your body goes into overdrive because you're nervous about something for me it used to be things like footsteps if I could I could tell if someone was angry due to footsteps um so then I used to feel panicky so that was just due to it constantly, lots of little things that happened I've not had any big event I've well I've probably had loads of big events to what would what other people would think were big events but to me it's just been lots of little things where my nervous system is just fried it doesn't know how to manage it and it's taken years to learn. So complex trauma or developmental trauma is lots of micro events that have just built up and it's just made one big thing. So if someone has someone on their team and for some reason the leader doesn't understand the reasons behind why a person behaves a certain way or acts in a certain way, are there sort of, from your experience, a couple of sort of subtle signals leaders can miss that would suggest a trauma response are playing out perhaps on their teams, whether it's in a meeting or some sort of gathering? Absolutely. There's lots of things. So people pleasing. You can find that people do a lot of people pleasing when they're over anxious or they've had trauma. The point that I just want to make here is not not everybody understands themselves. So the employee themselves might not understand that it's due to trauma because I didn't. And I got through many, many years of being employed before I noticed. So they might not understand. So it's hard for a leader, but it's about looking for little things like heightened anxiety, people pleasing. Not responding well to criticism having shutting down when they have criticism because they're taking it as a personal attack because that might be something that's come up in their lives before so there's just lots of they don't like conflict they don't like feeling powerless they don't like they don't like over controlling they don't like bullying um they have justice they like they can tell if there's injustice and they can't bear it so there's a lot there's lots of things lots of ways that you are able to identify it um and you to be honest you don't need to know what the trauma was you don't actually none of. None of that's important. As a leader, you don't need to know what that person's trauma is. It's personal to them. They might not even realise that it's had such an effect on them. But it's about identifying the signs so that you can put things in place or you can just really try and avoid making that person be re-triggered. And I hate the word triggered. I don't know why. It just makes me feel a bit out of sorts. But we don't want to re-trigger stuff. We want to get the best out of them. And actually we want retention and we want resilience in the team so by being able to recognize these things you can talk to people we have to treat people we need to be leaders but we need to be human we need to be humans and be understanding so speaking to that person you can make quieter environments there's so there's just so much you can do to help with trauma but you can also recognize it so many ways just watching how people interact sorry jason no no please please continue natalie please it's just watching how people interact so being a people watcher you can see how people react to certain situations and actually just knowing the people that you're working with you will be able to see it if you have the information and you've and you've learned about trauma and how people react just watching them just sit back and watch interactions between team members or how they work or how they accept criticism or don't or just how they are as people you will be able to pick it up it's just having that learning behind it you need to have the learning behind it for the leaders to be able to recognize it. To some extent we've already addressed it but i'd like to dive a little deeper so like for example if if i was to shadow you for a day you know at work what micro behaviors would show your, practicing um with uh what's i guess the correct term trauma informed leadership, Yeah. So for me, if you followed me at work, one, I am a very open person. So I show all of my staff that I make mistakes all the time because they need to know I'm human. I'm not perfect. I go around I talk to everybody as people not as leaders but as people you're naturally drawn to other people than some people than you are to others but I make a point of making sure I say good morning to everybody making sure I do sit quietly sometimes and just watch how everybody's coming in I always I can't micromanage I can't bear it I've been micromanaged so I don't micromanage what I do is people have tasks and I trust them I trust all my staff to do what I've asked them to do I don't expect more I don't expect less just what you if you want to give me more that's absolutely fine but I let them have the autonomy to go and do their own jobs and I trust them to actually be able to do it if they can't I'm very open I have an open door policy if you're struggling if you need anything I might not know the answer because I don't know the answer to everything um but i will help you find the answer i might know somebody who. Does know the answer so my staff will come and talk to me and we'll go and work it out together because i don't necessarily know what i'm doing um and i'm just really compassionate and i have time i make time for people so people come in and you can tell they're not happy you can just tell somebody's got excuse my term but a face like a slapped ass and they come in and you think what's going on here so i make time and i go and sit with them or i'll just be like are you okay to be honest now i'm at a point where staff come in and ask to have a chat with me quite a lot of the time that people chat with me it's about nothing to do with work it's just that sometimes people don't have anyone else to offload to and actually if they can get that off their minds in the morning we have a much more productive day so that would speak that would speak a lot to your your ability to show compassion empathy to sit down to listen to understand to validate certain emotions and to take the time for people to have that conversation because obviously people wouldn't come to you natalie if they didn't trust you i don't say this as a compliment but as an observation based on what you're telling me and that takes time to establish that level of, credibility and trust and transparency and it doesn't have it could be anybody whether they're I don't know, whatever that neuro normal or neuro diverse, it doesn't matter. I mean, these are basic skills we could all be better at to be just better humans to connect with each other. And I think it is, I think one of the main things that makes people or staff trust me or anybody that I talk to is that I am human. I am not afraid to admit my mistakes. I am not afraid to sit there and say, I've done something like that. Or, do you know what? I've messed up like that. Or this is an example of where I haven't been perfect, but I've still managed to do what I've done. So this isn't the end of your life because you've made a little mistake or to them, it might be a massive mistake and they might feel like it's massive. But knowing that somebody else makes mistakes and we're all human, I think that's what counts in my favor. I mean, I am loud and I do laugh a lot. And I think that also helps in my favor. I can laugh off most things. But also, I just think it's the fact that I'm honest and I'm human. I literally I can see the funny side of things when people make mistakes. Sometimes it is hilarious you know there's no point getting angry is it because they make silly mistakes and they're so worried and they're so nervous and then they tell you and you're like wow we've all done that so I think being human is what's made them trust me I mean in my current role where I am at the moment I've only been there a year because I moved out of the hospital so it's been it's been a journey but now and I probably say in the last six months people are coming to me all the time to talk because they know that I'm going to either laugh or I'm going to be really helpful and or I'm going to say yeah I've messed up look at it look at what I've done or I'm just it's just honesty let's just be humans let's stop trying we're so desperate to try and prove that we're something we're not that we isolate other people away from us so I think being open helps so if I may give a couple examples if we can bring this down to the practical so if i've been following you for a day uh in your leadership with your team, and if i let's say a team member suddenly withdraws in a meeting because of some sort of critical feedback how would you handle that situation i'd absolutely carry on with the meeting to begin with because if someone's withdrawing. It's not always best to address that in a meeting with other people. It's about noticing it, taking note and thinking, right, and then speaking to them after. Are you OK? Did I say something or is something made you feel not right? Or do you feel really criticised? Because I know what it's like to take criticism. I don't take it well. I have rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. So I think the world's ending when someone criticises me. So I appreciate that other people feel like that and talking to them afterwards and explaining whatever the criticism was and actually sitting down with that person away from the meeting environment. I really, really, really, really, really hate people being belittled in meetings by people who are trying to elevate themselves because it doesn't elevate you at all. It just makes you look like an idiot. But it happens so, so much that I will never, ever ask people questions that I think, or put them down in front of other people because I just don't agree with it. If somebody's withdrawing they don't want to talk about whatever it is in front of everybody else otherwise they bring it up straight away they want they need time one they probably need time to process it so we need to remember everything is about processing i might process it in five minutes it might take them two days so i have a member of staff that if i change something i can't speak to her about it for at least two three days because it takes us so she gets so upset that it takes her three days to process it and then she's ready to talk so it's I would just speak to that person after the meeting is there something you need to talk about is there something you need to clarify I'd probably still laugh about stuff and just try and just try and get them to open up if they're not ready to then we meet again at a later date if they're still not feeling right it's about recognizing it and then not bringing it up in front of everybody because it was probably if someone's withdrawing, very personal to them or they're reacting in a way that they don't understand it. As I said, I hate this word, but re-triggering something from their past. Yeah, it awakens something in them. Because just to also set the playing field here is that that person who may take 48 hours to process on something may be one of your top performers. He or she may show up. They're diligent. They're hardworking. They deliver with quality. They have a strong work ethic. But because of some sort of past experience, this is how their nervous system processes information. This is the time they need to kind of walk through whatever change or complexity is being introduced. So I just wanted to say that because a lot of people think, oh, these are sort of B players. No, far from it. These could be some of your top, top people per se. But we just need to find a way to adapt as we do with any type of learning or processing. If I may throw a second scenario at you. A lot of the times we have to leaders or managers need to give have hard conversations with people about their attitude about their behavior about their performance let's say with you natalie i'm chatting you in the afternoon you saw that someone let's say jason had to perform but he's kind of falling behind he's not doing what he's supposed to do he's not meeting his numbers or whatever it. And you know that by saying something to jason it can push him over the edge or he'll he'll react very defensively how would you approach having a difficult conversation with him. Um, many ways. It depends, because as I said, it's about knowing the people that are working for you. So I've managed many difficult members of staff that have been redeployed for being difficult. And it's about learning them and what they need sometimes. So depending, say, Jason was the sort of person that I know is I'm going to speak, I'd take them away, speak to them. If I know he's the sort of person that's going to blow up, let everything out and then calm down, because some people do that. So you'll speak to them. They get really, really angry and they cry and then they regulate. So if I thought that you were going to be one of those people, I'd talk to you, I'd say what the problem is. I would explain, you know, I'd ask why, what's going on for you? You're not hitting the normal targets. It depends where they were before, because there's underperforming from the day you start your job. But there's people that have performed, performed, performed, and then suddenly it drops off. That's not anything to do with work. That's something going on with that individual. So it's all about everything that's around it. So say you were the person who had been performing, performing, performing, something dropped off. How do I know what's going on in your life? Have I spoken to you? Have I sat down? So I might call you in. Is there something going on? Are you OK? What's been going on recently? I've noticed that you're not quite meeting your targets. Is there something that I need to know about? Is there something affecting your work? Because sometimes people just need to sit and be heard. It might just be that you need a break. It might just be that actually you've got no bandwidth left because there's things going on at work that I don't know about. It might not necessarily be home. You might be helping Steve work. Pete julia to do their work which has meant your work's dropped off because you might be a people pleaser so you don't want to let those people down so you're trying to tip out of your cup into everybody else's so if i don't speak to you and understand that if i went straight in and be like you're underperforming you must do more that's just going to make you react we need to sit and we need to work out why especially if you're a known performer what is going on what bandwidth have you got do you need a break you know without being because there's there's doing that and I've had people do it to me but there's also doing it without undermining people because you can say to someone what's going on for you and it can be really undermining because there's there's nothing going on for me I'm absolutely fine it's sometimes the response you get because people think that you're then trying to attack them so it's about how you word it and how you read body language um having trauma although terrible gives you many superpowers one of those is reading people very quickly and building connections very quickly so although it's been terrible that my life wasn't great I have lots of superpowers that I can now take into my life and that I use daily so I'd read you as I was talking to you so I'd know if I was pushing in the right direction or the wrong direction or if it was something that was making you your nervous system react so and that's not something I think you can learn I think I'm just well obviously I learned it but. It was through terrible circumstances um but it's about being able to read people and just be understanding if you've always performed and it's dropped off something's going on it doesn't matter what it is something's not right and we need to work out what it is you might need a break you might just need to offload you might have something that you want to talk about but you're too scared to come and talk about and actually me coming to speak to you makes you then talk about it and we work it out it's about working together with the person and finding a solution and so it so what i understand you're saying just to kind of put a headline on this per se or a synopsis is to. It's taking the time to build the trust understanding that person in those cases it's about sitting in in a focus room or meeting room just you and him or you and her and being able to instead of maybe you you frame the conversation jason you know i see your productivity level or your performance has dropped a little it's just to set the tone so both people know where on the page you are but then what i hear you you're asking a number of questions, exploratory curious inquisitive questions to understand the background. For why jason is doing what he's doing or saying what he's saying. To understand that but it's also over time it's being able to understand the pattern of jason's reactions to let's say conflict or to bad news or to constructive feedback maybe he blows up calms down maybe he goes quiet but it's understanding is this what i understand you're communicating in a nutshell that's exactly it's about understanding how they're going to react so you you get to know people and you you know how they're going to react everybody needs to be able to regulate neurodiverse or not trauma or not you everybody and some people learn it as children but it's about understanding how people regulate so if just you take it as criticism and that makes your nervous system go into overdrive it's about me understanding that so if that means because you might just get really angry i'm really offended and i might just need to give you time you might go silent some people get absolutely silent because they don't know how to manage it and they shut down which is just the freeze you just know it's their freeze state that they're going into some people need to go away and think about it for a week and it's about knowing the people and that's my point is we're human beings you just need to get to know other human beings and you'll be able to lead a team that you can actually be empathetic with because once you start to get to know people empathy comes naturally I think because you try and walk in people's shoes for a day and you think god that's terrible how do they get. Up every day god how is that so I think as you get to know people and their. Stories you get to understand how to manage them. In the first part of our conversation, Natalie shares insights on how neurodiversity and trauma show up in the workplace and what leaders can do to respond more effectively. Natalie explains that neurodiversity isn't just a clinical term. It's a lens for understanding the many ways people process information and experience the world, whether it's ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia. Well, the key is not to rely on labels, but to recognize and support each individual's needs. She stresses that thriving workplaces are those that offer flexibility, ask the right questions, and avoid one-size-fits-all solutions. We also explore trauma-informed leadership. Natalie walks us through subtle but critical signs leaders should look out for, like people-pleasing, hyper-vigilance, or emotional withdrawal. She reminds us that it's not about diagnosing trauma, but about creating psychological safety so that staff aren't re-traumatized by how feedback is delivered or how conflict is managed. Trust and humanity are central to Natalie's leadership style. She shares her belief in vulnerability, openness about mistakes, and creating space for people to process at their own pace. Whether it's giving a withdrawn team member space after a tough meeting or approaching performance issues with curiosity instead of criticism. Her approach is rooted in empathy and personal connection. Natalie has shared in this part of the conversation very, very nuts and bolts, tools, pragmatic ways of creating more inclusive, resilient, and emotionally intelligent workplaces. So now let's slip back into the stream of part two of my brilliant conversation with Natalie Armstrong. So in your consultancy work, what are some of the common organizational blind spots around neurodivergence do you encounter or experience frequently? Stigma. There's so much stigma around neurodiversity. I think we've got much better since covid um covid has opened everybody's eyes a bit i think as we stopped and managed to stay in our houses everybody was like oh i'm not really sure i like people or i really can't cope without people um some of us loved it some of us didn't um i think stigma is a huge huge problem i think people um. ADHD especially, they mask. I think there's a statistic, I think it's like 93% or 94% of adults with ADHD in the UK have admitted to masking to stay at work. Now that is hard work. So masking for people that don't know is trying to turn yourself, acting in a way that you think It means you'll fit in. So not being your authentic self. So with ADHD, you can have you can be really hyperactive. You might need to tap. You might need to move around. So you purposely try and keep that in. Now, that's really tiring. That can that then leads to burnout. So the stigma of even telling somebody you've got ADHD is out there because people don't say it. Instead, they end up burning out, which then that shows up in the workplace as repeated sickness, this where they've burnt out and they can't and it might only be that they have two three days off but it's you start to see a pattern and you think what's going on here and it's because somebody. Is burning out they can only that you can only be someone you're not for so long if anyone who's listening has ever tried to be someone they're not it's really tiring i mean i've tried it many times and i just don't fit into the mold and i find it very tiring then i burn out um so I think stigma of being able to say actually I need to have some sort of adjustment that also has is hit with stigma um I can't speak for elsewhere but in the UK asking for adjustments can sometimes be a real problem you they can get late they then label that staff member as a problem when actually they're just trying to put it out there which then stops other people from masking so they don't then we're not putting adjustments in place like a stand-up desk or. Quick five ten minute breaks in the 90s, maybe not so much now, but no one would have blinked an eye about people going out for a cigarette every hour. They would have just gone out for a quick cigarette break and nobody would have blinked an eye. But then if you say, right, I've got a neurodivergent, I need to have little micro breaks throughout the day. People are like, whoa, what do you mean? Well, hold on a minute, if I was smoking and I was going out every hour, no one would blink an eye. Indeed, indeed. So it's about the it's i think stigma is the biggest thing and i think just lack of education as i've said with everything with trauma with leadership i think we just we're not sure we haven't changed with the times we're starting to catch up in society but we're not catching up in schools organizations and companies there are some companies out there that have got it absolutely right and they're doing really well and they see the productivity and they've seen the benefits I think it's just hard for companies to move from where they are to see that actually giving micro breaks might mean that someone works harder because it seems counterproductive to what we've always been told we must work for eight hours those people we literally we celebrate people who are able to keep going regardless we celebrate the ones who work through their lunches and they stay late and they're the ones who manage to succeed because they put their all into it and they're on call 24 7 but actually that's that's not the correct way you're not getting the most out of that person the people you know they're not turning around and saying actually i just need a day off or i finish at five they need to we're not showing people boundaries are right there's just so many things that are going wrong that we need to be able to put them but i would say put them right but i would say the main one for me is stigma the stigma of people being able to actually speak up and ask for adjustments so that they don't want to be seen as a problem. You've been thought of as a problem and different your whole life to then come to work and be able to say, actually, I need this. It's very, very hard. I think a lot of the stigma may come from being unintentional for other people, right? But as you said, it's about informing, educating, bringing people up to speed to understand what this is. I'd like to ask you, You mentioned that you know some companies that are doing it in a much better way. What are some of the practices they have implemented to create a more psychological safe environment, So, just little things you can do. So, we discussed this before. When you're interviewing people, send out the questions before. Give everybody the same opportunities so you get the best out of them. Um there's flexibility having more flexibility we're very rigid i think um in lots of workplaces flexibility of where people work if if that's possible it's not always possible but also flexibility on um tasks and what they're doing and how they're doing them give people autonomy um the right to opt out of certain situations so um as a nurse we do lots of safeguarding. Safeguarding can be really hard for me to go through so that especially domestic violence i really struggle with that so i'm very i'm very very lucky i have somebody who is a leader for me who i can go to and she lets me opt out of certain things because i can't sit through it because that would ruin my whole day so this is what you mean by safeguarding just. To define it for our audience is where we go and learn about adults who um have been abused so financial abuse physical abuse um but this is as adults and we're looking for things like radicalization domestic violence there's so much out there so um as nurses we have to safeguard them so if they come in and we think have you is this domestic violence we have to refer them on we have to put them okay but if it's an old lady is she being looked after properly by her son or have we noticed there's bruises so it's about us looking after people who can't look after themselves pretty much so we have to do courses every year very very triggering especially for me doing the child safeguarding I find it really hard actually that was one of the at university one of the things that made me realize maybe my life hadn't been as okay as I thought it was um but yeah so just letting people opt out of these things very important I've done my adult safeguarding I still know what it is i just have to miss domestic violence i can't be listening to it um and i have to miss certain bits of child safeguarding because it's very hard and it's really triggering so companies don't always do safeguarding but there's things. That people can't do giving them the option actually if someone comes and says. To you i'm going to find that really difficult do they have to do it if they have to do it is there another way they can do it give them options give them autonomy let them do things. They do support over blame. Now, I'm really big on this one. So when something goes wrong, instead of blaming that individual, supporting them through it. That is so important because blame and shame are huge in neurodiversity. You've grown up with shame the whole time. Trauma. Half the reason we don't talk about trauma is because it's shame. You're ashamed of what's happened. You don't want anyone to know. so when something goes wrong if someone starts blaming you you start to feel ashamed you start then that builds so many big barriers whereas actually if you support them and you've got why has this happened what's gone on you know let's have a look at it like what mistake it's people are more likely to get on board and be open about it and that's really good for dry divergent staff and for um people who have been through trauma there's there's empathy the companies have empathy their understanding their understanding that life is hard not just if you've been through trauma or you've got some sort of neurodiversity life is hard life is very hard we have children we have jobs we have partners we have families we have things that are going on things that we can't miss you know you can work in a very structured environment where you're not allowed to take time off it's very hard to go to a doctor's appointment between monday and friday nine to five because you work quite late you have the time off for that a dentist your child's assembly, the companies who have got it right. If there's nothing stopping them, they let people go to their children's events so they're not missing it, so that they can still be a human being as well as working. So they can still be a parent. They can still, you know, there needs to be that understanding that actually people can manage their own time. And we are adults. We are all adults. If the work's done and you need to go to your child's assembly, please go. If you need to go to your child's, I don't know, certificate giving, let them go. You know, is it allowed? Is it going to affect any meetings? No, it's an hour that they're gone. Let them do it. I think that is another thing. It's about giving some of it back to the employee, letting them manage themselves, letting them have that autonomy. That's where they've got it right. Having quiet workspaces. Offices are overwhelming. If you've ever worked in an open office. I think it's for a lot of people, especially the open environments now, right? Yeah, it is massively overwhelming. Everybody's on Teams or Zoom and you can hear every conversation and there's nowhere to go. There's no nice staff room. The staff room smells of farts because somebody's left some gone off ham that's been there three weeks. So that's overwhelming. So you can't sit in there and you work in a horrible area where you go outside, there's car noises. So just having a room that's not smelling of farts and that's a bit quieter that people can go in or having little offices that people can use or little rooms so they're not always in the open office. Just having quiet areas, having meetings where people can stand up if they want to. That is a great thing. So if I just shift, because I think what I hear is about cultural building and it's about adapting systems. So let's imagine an organization is starting from scratch. What would you recommend would be the first three questions they should ask themselves to design a more neurodiverse environment or trauma-informed culture? I think the first question would be that they need to ask themselves is, what are we trying to achieve here? What is it that they actually want out of people before they even start designing anything? How are they going to get people on board? You can employ whoever you want, but ideally what you actually want is you want your employees to be on board. So how are they going to get them on board? What is their mission? But then to make the actual environment better, I think one of the main things that they should be looking at is areas where people can break away. They can do work, but they can break away so they can go and sit in another room. They can have i don't. Know little fidget toys in a room that's something you know. If somebody's getting overwhelmed can they just step up i would say that would be my main thing my main thing would be how what is your actual mission what do you want to achieve here and making sure that you've got a room where people can break away because i think that is the hard i think that is the main thing to be a lot of adults can regulate their own emotions they actually are saying that a lot of adults also can't so but um well they can't it's just it's just one of those things um but being able to break away from a situation gives them an opportunity to go and at least start trying to regulate their emotions so that they come back and they can continue working it's not a room for them to just go and sit in and do nothing it's just a they need to have a breakaway room and again many of the times these could be your top performers your best people the the the the glue the social glue that holds the team in cohesion per se but they have these these needs and it is maybe to have a focus room where they can go focus where it's off from the open landscape maybe it's to take these micro bakes people going down for a smoke why can't they just go out for you know i don't know suck in some fresh air walk around the building just sit on a bench just to recollect what i hear is just creating a very adaptable flexible environment which makes the organization or the team much more resilient and to meet whatever targets they are set out to meet. Um if i can follow up with another question so where do you feel that you know a lot of companies when they hear this they're thinking yes let's create more of this kind of environment so where do you see some of these sort of inclusion initiatives stalling and what can help companies or teams or leaders to sort of regain momentum um i think stalling again which i hate to keep coming back to it is through training and education i think lack of understanding for lots of people um different generations we know over generations attitudes and opinions have changed if you look at what's happened, what some generations think to what others, there's. There's a lot of change. It's very hard to change how people think. So you might find that you've got somebody who is running a business who isn't, who is on board, but then the person behind them isn't because that's how they've grown up. You must work hard. You must do this. You must, why are they taking a break? Everybody's all of a sudden, why is everyone going soft? Why does everybody? And it's not about being soft. And it's about education to teach, to get people to come around to that, because actually you can't force anyone to change their mind. If you educate them that actually this isn't being soft and you can show them that this is the results that we have by doing this and it's about having proven research and results I think the biggest barrier is changing opinions because we have worked the way we've worked for so long and with an up-and-coming young workforce we see people of older generations, kind of thinking they're soft when they're not they're actually just more self-aware and they're. They're in a place where they feel safe to ask for what they need, which back 40, 50 years ago, you just did as you were told. Children were seen and not heard. That was a great line that I grew up on. So you just you did what you were told. And so it's really hard when that's been your whole life and your opinion and your perception for your whole life to then change that. So I think that's one of the biggest barriers is trying to, again, training and education. But to get people to come around to that without negative connotations against it of it being weak and it being soft and they just need to get themselves together and they just need to we don't need to just tough it out I mean it's it's a problem in lots of things isn't it we we can't deny that it's a problem for men's mental health so men think that it's soft to go and get help for their mental health but then we see a massive rise in suicides in men and actually it's the same with resilience people think that it's just about toughing it out just going and going and going and going those are resilient people but they're not actually resilience is having the space and the time to be able to say i need this this and this and it's about teaching that and trying to remove that barrier away from people so for listeners recognize themselves in in our conversation today what would you suggest what is the one first step they can take. Towards advocating for themselves, for their own needs at work. Um don't be scared don't be scared to ask for what you need and if you can't if you find that it's not for you and that you can't get what you need don't be scared to change jobs don't be scared you need to look after you and actually learn tools um read up about things and learn tools that you can use to be able to speak to people in a way that you can get what you need So it's really hard when you're neurodiverse to understand necessarily, especially with autism, to understand emotional cues with other people. So they might come across really abrupt and it's about how they put themselves across. But if you're not getting what you need in your workplace, then it probably isn't the workplace for you. And that's a really terrible thing because I don't want everyone just walking out on their jobs. But actually you're going to do more harm to yourself in a workplace that isn't even won't make any allowances for who you are as a human being well said and so for leaders tuning in you know for leaders where our conversation something has resonated with them if something's woken something up in them what do you think the next sort of bold question they can pose to their teams. When it comes to neurodiversity be inclusive ask your whole team what they think there will be neurodiverse people in your team that aren't even aware that they're neurodiverse um who can give you suggestions be inclusive ask teams ask what they could do with what would help them perform better you know we're all adults and i i hate to keep saying that but i do feel like it's something we forget all the time is we are all adults we all have great ideas but be inclusive and as the leader be more open. I think that's the main thing, being more open to other people and what they're going through to understand, because some of the best leaders are going through terrible times, but they are open to what other people are going through and they can be understanding. And I think being open to just be a human being and being open to other people's emotions and understanding them, you will be able to make a better workforce just by that one change, I think, by being more open and as we come close to the top of our hour and the top of our conversation Natalie is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience that I haven't asked about or we haven't addressed no I think the main thing that I want to get out there is well there's a few things one as leaders let's be more human let's stop trying to fit into the everything's static we need to change that role um and let's start appreciating that we all process information differently and let's look at what we can do but also let's just try and be kind. Let's just all get be out here trying to be kind to each other um i just think we have lost that in companies not all companies have not you know it's not i'm not painting everyone the same brush but we're too focused on numbers and outcomes and we forget about the people who are getting us to those numbers and outcomes so maybe let's just be a bit more human let's be less static be a bit more human is what I really want to get across but also to people who are like me who are employees or are working in companies you can do it you can ask for adjustments you might get seen as a problem But that doesn't mean that you can't then change that for other people. Be brave. Go out there, be brave, ask for what you need, because at the end of the day, we only have one life and we need to be happy in it. And if you're not getting what you need, then move on, because toxic workplaces will absolutely kill you off. Natalie Armstrong, Natalie, thank you very much for such a compelling and intriguing conversation today. I think that it is one that is needed and it's needed more often. Thank you, Jason. Thank you for your time. What really stayed with me was Natalie's reminder that leadership doesn't have to be rigid. It can be deeply human. You know, creating a workplace where neurodivergent individuals feel supported isn't about ticking boxes. It's about seeing people clearly and making space for them to succeed in their own way. Now, it could be offering a quiet space, allowing flexible scheduling, or simply listening without judgment. These aren't just nice-to-haves. Well, they're essential for building resilient, thriving teams. Natalie also encourages us all, especially those who are neurodivergent, to speak up for what we need, even if it feels uncomfortable. And that bravery, that courage, that boldness, well, it shifts cultures. You know, many of the things Natalie suggested based on experience and deep knowledge, I completely concur. But this isn't just for people who are neurodivergent. I mean, to some extent, we all fall under that category in my eyes. I think all the elements we talked about are elements that we should all include, irregardless if we are this or that, to create psychosocial emotional safety in those environments. Because at the end of the day, if we can create that kind of environment, we create resilient organizations, resilient teams, and resilient individuals. And part of it is, as we move into this new next 25 years with machine learning and AI, machines are better at being machines. But as humans, well, we got to be better at being human. And to you, Natalie, a personal thank you from me. I really enjoyed our conversation and I found it very informative and very compelling. So thank you very much. Well, folks, if you know someone that this episode could benefit it or might find of interest, please share it with them. And if you find a show of interest and you show up every week, I'd appreciate if maybe you could put a post in on LinkedIn or Instagram just to spread the word. But anyways, until next time, keep well, keep strong, and we'll speak soon. Music.